Alright Damo, it’s on….; round two?
July 6th 2007 13:55
Alright Damo, it’s on…., round two; lets continue this...
Damo has replied:
Thanks for this response.
However I am not sure whether I should respond here or create a new post the cut and paste all of this into it.
As I said I am happy with people disagreeing with me. I am also happy to listen to a convincing argument as to why I am wrong. if I am missing the any crucial information then I am happy to see it and asses it.
I hope that my tone in writing treats people with the same respect that you have shown me. Therefore I am of the opinion that disagreeing is not the same as disrespect.
However I am not sure whether I should respond here or create a new post the cut and paste all of this into it.
As I said I am happy with people disagreeing with me. I am also happy to listen to a convincing argument as to why I am wrong. if I am missing the any crucial information then I am happy to see it and asses it.
I hope that my tone in writing treats people with the same respect that you have shown me. Therefore I am of the opinion that disagreeing is not the same as disrespect.
Cut n paste works for me; and I too appreciate dissenting opinions, as well as a rancor-less toned response.
So with all due respect I reply.
If I am reading you correctly you say that GWB is clever because he can do something this clever.
If I am reading you correctly you say that GWB is clever because he can do something this clever.
He has demonstrated a remarkable ability to out maneuver and out wit many of the pundits that want to bring him down; that is more than simply being clever.
My response would be: it looks to me to be a cunning plan. Cunning and brilliance are not the same thing. The underlying premise here is that the cunning should be rewarded regardless of legal and morality justice. The question should be asked as to whether this is a just decision or an expedient decision?
Ah, and whose moral compass are we going to use? A religious morality would put him under serious ACLU scrutiny here in the US for mixing politics and religion; an anarchistic morality base would be more in keeping with what you are suggesting and he is doing that already. So what’s the problem? The Billary’s regime was rewarded in spite of their many, many legal and moral faux pas.
The other assumption is that I have called GWB a dolt. Since I don’t have dinner with him at his private ranch and he hasn’t invited me over for chess I have no idea how smart he is or is not.
By inference you postulated earlier that the converse is true. Extend an invitation to meet with GW for a game of chess, he may grace you with a visit; after all, he must have plenty of free time available if he’s not running or influencing half of the free world and abusing the rest in a presidential manner as we elected him to do.
However I am allowed to assume that his level of intelligence is no greater than the average Joe Schmo. Don’t take this the wrong way I think the same about 99% of so called world leaders.
I am not convinced of the viability of that remark, but-hey, you may be dead on. Do you really know the Joe Schmo’s of this world well enough to speak for them?
-Parroting liberal view vs Parroting Red Neck View? My intentionally illogical response to what I saw as an illogical statement. Tit for Tat argument- Let us agree from now on they we are neither.
Done.
Now for the actual thrust of My post.
I can only base my conclusions upon what I read, see and hear. Same as everyone else. I am not privy to what sources you have access to any more than you are privy to what sources I have access to. So therefore how would you know whether I am mindlessly echoing or writing with considered thought about the subject.
I can only base my conclusions upon what I read, see and hear. Same as everyone else. I am not privy to what sources you have access to any more than you are privy to what sources I have access to. So therefore how would you know whether I am mindlessly echoing or writing with considered thought about the subject.
I can cede the likelihood that we have disparate sources of independent information; but I stand on my belief, that what I was hearing put forth earlier, is echoing the ten second sound bytes put out by the liberal media.
There will always be disputed facts in every story but there are also points of agreement.
Points not in dispute:
Scooter found guilty,
Scooter Commuted but guilty verdict is still in tact.
He still has to pay the fine and still has a criminal record.
Therefore he is still guilty in the eyes of the law.
Points not in dispute:
Scooter found guilty,
Scooter Commuted but guilty verdict is still in tact.
He still has to pay the fine and still has a criminal record.
Therefore he is still guilty in the eyes of the law.
Think in terms of entrapment to serve a political purpose; they can’t get to GW, so they force Scooter into a situation where he unravels and lies. They wanted to discredit GW, couldn’t get to him and so they went after a subordinate. Billary and crew successfully used that ploy during their reign. Being guilty under the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law has always been a problem; but how guilty are you, when you’ve been baited and fallen into a trap?
There is also the possibility, that out of some misguided loyalty issue, he felt compelled to fall on his political sword to protect a setting president that didn’t need protecting.
Having followed this story for some months I am curious as to why such an action was taken by GWB. Hard questions should be asked even if they can be resolved easily. That would prevent disquiet in the blogging world. Isn’t it the duty of the ordinary folk to hold those in power to account?
Look at the actions of his predecessor; Billary pardoned 140 people on January, 2001 his last day in office. It's an interesting list, with several of the group being questionable candidates for clemency; all of this was done in a manner that escaped public scrutiny. Compare this to the manner and numbers of pardons extended by GW.
-Me being outside the voting system in USA but commenting on its Personalities and Activities as if I do vote?
Yes, a liberty that you seem to have bestowed upon yourself, and I invite you to maintain. I dislike fence squatters.
Fair enough if America was under glass and did nothing to effect the rest of the world. Fair enough if Australia was not involved in the same Iraq War which seems to at the heart of the Scooter Libby case. Fair enough if there were no questions about the evidence used to take our nations to war.
Let me remind you that most of those politicians and world leaders whose first bit of rhetoric was to postulate the reality of WMD’s in Iraq and our right to protect ourselves, then waffled for politically motivated reasons.
War is tough, you either fight to win or stay home and whine when things gets blown up; ask the French and the Spanish people. Are they any more secure?
Yup, I too have access to the internet, and I am witnessing similar phenomenon in Australia.
As an aside; I like this about GW, you know where he stands and what he is doing. There is no political guile about the man.
Even if none of these factors were involved then I would need to concede that Freedom of Speech stops at the US border. Today I think I will say it does not.
Freedom of speech is not an issue, it’s the misguided use of it that bothers me; biased news media specifically.
-Vilifying Bush Camp? Lockstep with the Liberal agenda?
I call it healthy debate and part of the democratic process to question the leaders of the world. What use is their unchallenged power to me? So if handed evidence and I am able to process it, surely I can express an opinion about it. By disagreeing do I became ‘Looney Left wing Liberal?’ Hardly. To assume so would be to conclude all critics are enemies.
I call it healthy debate and part of the democratic process to question the leaders of the world. What use is their unchallenged power to me? So if handed evidence and I am able to process it, surely I can express an opinion about it. By disagreeing do I became ‘Looney Left wing Liberal?’ Hardly. To assume so would be to conclude all critics are enemies.
Healthy debate is laudable and as long as those you question don’t run over you with tanks or ensconce you in a gulag somewhere for questioning those same leaders.
Looney are the irresponsible and prejudicial speech parrots; they are always enemies of critical thinkers. The fatally ignorant will remain for the most part, simple and fatally ignorant.
-Finally I could migrate to America so that I get a vote.
Easy enough, come into the US through Mexico to speed up the process; and then you get to vote for either Billary or the Obama the magic Negro (not my choice of words BTW).
Narrr.
Exactely.
Raven
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Comment by Ahmed
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Fact of the matter is the democratts don't want to end the war (apart from a few on the fringe), if they impeach bush what next? People expect the war to end, of course.
It's easier to take down the people around him, makes it look like theyre doing something without changing anything on the whole.
As for security, I think quite a few more people die from on raod accidents than terrorist attacks, yet if you want to increase speeding fines it gets all these moans and groans aboutit 'not being effective', yet people happily oblige to having their lives invaded under the guise that it will help them be more secure. though in effect if the CIA could take you into custody without charge, torture you for a few days and drop you off like it were nothing it wouldn't meen the US will be any safer, comments like 'if fifty innocent people are tortured but one of them is guilty then it's worth it' being made by your politicians isn't helping either.
Comment by katyzzz
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The theorists are on guard and reasoning is not a strong characteristic if you've been observing.
If you feel it and want it it must be right and I just can't believe some of those parallels.
Something about a force meeting an immoveable object.
As I said before you're very brave, the road toll is a worry so let's just allow all and every terrorist attack and 9/11 never happened really, it's just a political prank.
I'm off to London and Scotland and to the doctors without any fears whatsoever.
That way I choose what happens to me just as I choose to get into a motor vehicle. Makes no sense, you're right about that.
Whoever said sense had anything to do with argument.
You're even braver than I thought.
katyzzz
Comment by D. Armenta
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What constitutes bad manners?
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I'm wading through piles of horseshit , but still no pony. Show me the facts! All you've got so far is "Yes he is" , "No he isn't".
I love debates; personal opinions without substantiating information, however, are not only antithetical to debate but below both of your capabilities.
Two well-read and intelligent writers whose work I enjoy reading can do better than that.
C'mon, you two!!
Comment by Ahmed
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If we focused on reducing road related deaths we'd actually be saving lives, as it stands were killing more people than saving anyone by going to war overseas with countries that have nothing to do with 9/11 but everything to do with oil. It is'nt about 'our security', it's about 'their money'.
You buy into fear too easily, thats why we have wars and death, if they tell you to be afraid of the garbage man you won't put your trash out, now you're afraid to go to the doctor, what next? Are you just going to let your govenrment dictate what you should and shouldn't be afraid of? Do you trust your government? If you do then that is your biggest mistake.
Comment by Ahmed
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But hey, lets be afraid of them terrorists, lets be afraid of doctors, even though it's what? At least 142 times mor elikely I'm gong to die in my car from my own stupidity than from a terrorist attack.
Comment by Damo
I carefully read your response and I can tell that really like Bush ie: Republican camp and dislike the Democrat camp.
Personally neither like nor dislike either camp but I do like and dislike individual policies and as a consequence the instigators and enforcers of that policy. You have the equal right to do so.
Certainly I can use Kennedy's quaoted example when meeting Kruschev over the Cuban Missile crisis:
to paraphrase: "I'm not going to convert you to be a capitalist any more than you are going to convert me into being a communist. So lets just talk about the missiles..."
Forgive my poetic license, but the point is that we are not going to convert each other.
Also I think that we are too civilized to denegrate each other so there for what is left is to agree to disagree and common grounds of agreement. With out which all argument becomes me vs you.
Only a few observations I can make in your reply.
-Liberal Media Sound Bytes?
What about Neo-Con Media Sound Bytes?
You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
Perhaps something is only judged to Liberal unless it echoes the Whitehouse press releases.
Again you don't know what I read so the conclusion is based upon nothing.
Prove it to be so professor.
-War is tough?
I never knew that. Thanks.
So when are you going to Iraq?
Just applying the fight or whine rule.
Yes, I have a copy of Art of War too. Lovely read of useless nonsense.
However I disagree with the premise that war is a solution in itself. Or the concept of 'With us or Against us'. I can't remember reading anywhere that is says: 'Blessed are the War mongers'.
Could it be that we disagree on the issue of where true power lies?
Could it also be that we disagree on the effectiveness of war?
Comment by Damo
enjoying the show so far.
Right now it is at the deconstruction phase.
The humour stage should be next
Followed by the serious collation and presentation of evidence.
Then come the refuting of the sources of evidence.
The challenging of the interpretation of evidence
The alternative sources of evidence
Finally the agreeing to disagree
And that brings us back exactly where we started.
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
You provocateur.
This comment is opinion based and slanted as you choose to view it.
source: PollingReport.com
_____________________________ ___________
See also: Detailed trend
Survey Date Approve% Disapprove% Unsure% %Change
CBS 6/26-28/07 A-27 D- 60 U-13 C -33
Newsweek 6/18-19/07 A-25 D-63 U-12 C -38
Gallup 6/11-14/07 A-24 D-71 U-5 C -47
and this
source: PollingReport.com
_____________________________ ___________
See also: Complete trend
Survey Date Approve% Disapprove% Unsure% %Change
Newsweek 7/2-3/07 A-26 D-65 U- 9 C -39
CBS 6/26-28/07 A-27 D-65 U-8 C -38
FOX 6/26-27/07 A-31 D-60 U-9 C -29
Who has more credibility based upon job approval ratings? Backbone, naw it's more than that.
It's easier to take down the people around him, makes it look like theyre doing something without changing anything on the whole.
The Democrats have been so ambivalent as to be impotent throughout GW's entire term in office; he smoked them while leading the way and never wavering from his duties. Research it yourself. But then real leaders carry on as charged even in the face of adversity.
Really Long Link
This isn't about traffic, sports, suicide, murder, environmental or any other means of death. It is specifically is about those focused on harming and killing innocent people throughout the world to enforce an ideology. If you are indiscriminately using the tools of terror to sell your philosophy, then I heartily endorse your being housed in a CIA welcome to reality center.
You are right; people will never be safe from 'harm' but they want the illusion that it is possible. And you doubting Thomas will one day realize that all of those answers you are so proud of, require a question formed through personal history to make it relevant, and historically-you aren't there yet, and I don't say that to minimize the quality of thoughts.
But I have faith in your willingness to question even the obvious. Critical thinking is becoming a lost art for the academic masses here in the US, and I am embarrassed by it.
Whether or not I agree with anything you say is moot. I am savoring the moment; Carpe diem.
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
We can choose to live our lives serving the lessor gods of the world by default. We serve the God of our higher selves by deliberate thought and considered action only. I chose my path long ago, and am not willing to change it now.
Nothing has been produced that can shake my core belief.
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
I'm wading through piles of horseshit , but still no pony. Show me the facts! All you've got so far is "Yes he is" , "No he isn't".
I love debates; personal opinions without substantiating information, however, are not only antithetical to debate but below both of your capabilities.
Two well-read and intelligent writers whose work I enjoy reading can do better than that.
C'mon, you two!!
[ Delete ]
Why don't you tell us what's really on your mind?
You're correct, I should bury this blog with links and sources, but that really isn't the point. I am inclined to spark critical thinking. Even presenting facts for consideration, I would inevitably present them according to my prejudices and would expect the same from others.
Bear with us, a grand experiment is on display.
Cheers.
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
It's just an example, Katyzzz, it's fear that rules peoples judgements, not common sense. Any wannabe terrorist can light a car on fire and bring a nation to its knees simply because it's scary.
Thief, criminal, robber, mugger or terrorist what does it matter who is breaking the criminal law and disturbing the peace of society; are we to shirk away from out duty to protect ourselves
Using Spain and France as examples, what was their reward for pulling out of the Iraqi theater?
They were bombed by men identified as terrorists.
How would making the roads of either country safer, improve security against criminal elements bent on harming innocents to extort a reward of some kind, exactly what the actions of terrorist are intended to leverage from society at large.
The matter of who is to control the oil in Iraq is a major issue; the oil belongs to the Iraqi people.
Whoever controls it will have the financial wherewithal to heavily influence the region. The coalition forces are there to safeguard the financial legacy of the Iraqi's. It's a big regional stick, who would you prefer to wield it? Russia, China, Iran, Syria or ..., insert the name of your favorite country in the blank.
How much money have the Iraqi's invested into their war of independence, compared to the amount the free world has invested. It is in America's best interest to have stability in the region. It would equate into security for us here in the US and Australia, where even our leaders have families that would be affected in an all out conflict in the region.
If the garbage men or doctors are plotting sedition or are bombing my cities, my family and friends then they should be feared.
You must not be familiar with the build up to WW1, WW2, Korea and Viet Nam; booming economies require a booming market, so war is probably good business and it is. Virtually every country on the planet has invested into it. Now, who is to police this potential pool of chaos? The very countries whose leadership you are so contemptuous about.
The bulk of the fear mongering I've encountered on Orble has been contained your posts and comments. The government that you fear is a reflection of the mindset of those governed, which includes yourself. For the record, I absolutely do not like career politicians, they loose their focus.
Interesting points of view Ahmed.
Raven
Comment by Ahmed
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So where is the harm? You should be more afraid to drive your car than a terrorist attack, yet you are less willing to slow down on the road than you are to let the government into your life.
However, going back to the 'harming andkilling innocent people throughout the world to enforce an ideology' comment, the US is most guilty of this, going to war with many different nations under the guise of democracy. How many Iraqis die every day so that the US may enforce this ideology? Better live under a dictatorship and live then in a country at war, though I prefer to live in a free society.
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
Personally neither like nor dislike either camp but I do like and dislike individual policies and as a consequence the instigators and enforcers of that policy. You have the equal right to do so.
Certainly I can use Kennedy's quoted example when meeting Kruschev over the Cuban Missile crisis:
to paraphrase: "I'm not going to convert you to be a capitalist any more than you are going to convert me into being a communist. So lets just talk about the missiles..."
Forgive my poetic license, but the point is that we are not going to convert each other.
Actually in the grand scheme of things I am more libertarian than republican or democrat with a dash of anarchist thrown in for flavor.
But I too hold people accountable for their actions and expect their action and words to be in accord; double speak is of little value to our current events.
Convert you? Not me, I am trying to get a handle on why you believe what you espouse, and clarify it in my mind. If the strength of your argument becomes so compelling that I am without recourse, maybe I'll reconsider.
You are quite right in that view. Playful jibes are to be expected.
-Liberal Media Sound Bytes?
What about Neo-Con Media Sound Bytes?
You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
Perhaps something is only judged to Liberal unless it echoes the Whitehouse press releases.
Again you don't know what I read so the conclusion is based upon nothing.
Prove it to be so professor.
Here's a source that is credible:
By SIMON WALTERS, Mail on Sunday - More by this author » Last updated at 21:11pm on 21st October 2006
I never knew that. Thanks.
So when are you going to Iraq?
Just applying the fight or whine rule.
Yes, I have a copy of Art of War too. Lovely read of useless nonsense.
Sarcasm? I am still physically suffering from my service as a Marine, but am I willing to go to Iraq, of course. Actually I am thinking about going there, perhaps as a teacher. The question is: will I see you or your proxy there? Or will you respond by opting out of anything other than debate?
War Monger, doesn't that fall under the viel of name calling? Well, because you asked:
Really Long Link and, Really Long Link
These address this issue specifically.
Can we exclude Kim Jong Il's version of paradise on earth?
This is a bit vague, so I'll take some liberties; In my world, if someone is to carry the power of life and death, I want it to be me. For two reasons, I have experience with the brutal act, and the proven ability to restrain myself from over reacting. Who on the world stage is able to do that?
On the other hand, where democracy reigns, even at its clumsiest, the power lies with the people.
Even monarchies are like a benevolent dictatorship, why else was Australia populated. Brits weren't given a choice in the matter, but were shipped there to do penance for their crimes. But once there, rather than to live in harmony with the indigenousness people, those native people were exploited. So, no higher moral ground for you there. So, power in this situation went to those positionally advantaged; just as it did in the US.
On the world stage we have a coalition attempting to create change in Iraq in a fashion just short of Imperialism; an awkward effort even under the best of situations. But, contrary to most biased news sources, progress is being made.
So, where does true power lie in your world?
War is very effective to bolster up sagging economies on the world front; and for preserving the status quo. Look at Kuwait, it was a living in relative peace until Saddam Insane decided to annex it; obviously for it sand deposits. Had they an effective military in place, we wouldn't have gone into the region.
The following link is about good news in Iraq:
Really Long Link
and so is this one,
Really Long Link
It is a difficult time that we live in, and decisions are made every day that affect every creature on this planet; I agree whole heartedly that we remain vigilant about the actions of those who govern us.
Raven
Comment by Ahmed
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Of course, the inability for the military to keep a lasting peace (who can blame them? They're trained for war, not peace keeping) slowly but surely changed all that. No amount of links to random websies can sway my mind so long as my family has nothing but sad things to say about whats going on in Iraq. Sadly it's worse than Saddam, I don't know how, but he did manage to keep a lot of uptight SOBs in line, not that he wasn't one, but at least he was in control.
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
Well, I do wish your family well.
The US did make a huge mistake by not securing the peace immediately; capriciously dismissing those who were maintaining the infrastructure was idiotic. In defense of the planners; this was new ground and the changes on the battlefield happened far quicker than anyone could anticipate.
I am sure that General D. H Petraeus is adapting to conditions on the ground, and I am led to believe that calm is being restored; but will take time to fully materialize.
What causes me concern is the possibility of coalition troops being pulled out of the country to soon; it would be unconscionable to leave such chaos in place, and would likely trigger an immediate civil war.
Raven
P.S. The links are intended for others.
Comment by Damo
I did a search and found the article you quoted on a rival publication to the BBC.
This could hardly be an unbiased reporting on bias could it? And I did read the article.
'War is Tough, I did not know that...' was in response 'Fight or Whine' rhetoric. However I have been very close to front lines in Sri Lanka and know from personal experience the cost of. Also I spent 3 years working in explosives making bombs, rockets and torpedo fuels. Broken arm from one explosion. Long story that justifies nothing in my opinions.
Good luck if you wish to go and teach in Iraq and I hope it does work out.
Your first two web links went Bible study sites and nowhere did it say: 'Blessed are the War Mongers' Instead one site tried to discuss the issue from a social justice self defence viewpoint and the other seemed to cherry pick biblical quotes to justify a call for arms. Theological differences negate each other immediately.
The phrase I quoted was used ironically and not addressed at any individual, so no individual insult can be drawn from it.
Kim Ill Jong- Is he in Iraq? (that is humour not a sarcastic insult)
The power of life and death in your hand? Because you have the restraint and wisdom to use it correctly.
EEECK! I have read that somewhere before. Is that Machiavelli?
I will leave your lesson in Australian history as I would have to forget my lessons in Australian history. I would rather talk about fixing the problems that exist today than trying to find a 'Moral High Ground'.
My angle on 'True Power' leans more to the personal than the grand display. Guns and Bullets can kill and destroy but what is so powerful about destruction? Living by the sword and dying by it, Taking an for an Eye until we are all blind. Just does not make sense from my view point. Becoming Napoleon to defeat Napoleon is self defeating logic.
The effectiveness of war?
Just use the body count in Iraq as the guide.
Also UNHCR refugee count as another guide.
The links you gave me to show how good things are in Iraq were pro Iraq war sites. Come on you should have done better than that.
The Good News From Iraq'
I would love to believe that Iraq is about to turn the corner and become a shining example for the Middle East but I would also like to believe that Santa is real (irony not sarcasm).
From my viewpoint I am yet to see a war that has winners. Only losers and survivors.
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
hahaha, alright, thanks for the exchange. I really do take delight in reading your posts, they give me cause to think. And we aren't really that far apart in ideology.
Ahmed,
Pray that it isn't Billary, there doesn't appear to be any radical changes looming on the horizon; it appears to be business as usual to me. Bill exploring interns with cigars, and Hillary thrashing about trying to be Bill like.
I am waiting for some of the candidates to get thinned out before I get to critical.
Raven
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
Let's hope a main stream candidate is elected; a no waffler would be nice. Otherwise we are all going to pay the price.
Campaign rhetoric is certainly different from oval office speak, especially after receiving the reality of the world situation briefing. That will be an eye opener.
Raven
Comment by Damo
Thanks for the ride it has been fun.
Can't even begin to argue with someone unless there is some common ground.
Just a side note about the upcoming US election as an outsider.
I feel that I am watching 'Alien verses Preditor'. Whoever wins we lose.
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
hahaha, you know that's a great descriptor of this up coming election.
Very insightful,.
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin-raginravensview
It's a game of influence buying and power brokering: many good folks will get kicked to the curb. The professional politician has a distinctive advantage.
Raven
Comment by Mountain Fog
But hey, why not throw some petrol on the bonfire and see what happens...
DISCUSS:
QUOTE:
"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
----------
Samuel P. Huntington
_____________________________ ____
Now secondly...for something almost completely different...but definitely more immediately important...
As regards the appalling murder of 3,000 people on September 11th in New York city:
(apprx. number only, as it is said many more were killed. Mexicans were employed in the towers without legal existance in USA so were not counted..)
I urge all those interested in engaging in an informed debate to watch "911: In Plane Site",
It is available on the net still and some video stores. All the coverage is drawn from officially released CBS etc coverage on the day.
We all saw it...and then again we didn't.
Like all great magicians, put the thing you are trying to hide in front and then distract the audience. Of course, it helped that the highly politicised media chose to ignore concerns and not actually examine the evidence in detail themselves.
Until you have seen this DVD, it is not worth debating, because I, like everyone else, was completely in the dark as to what was going on that day, and yes, I watched it on TV as it happened like so many others.
I LOVE America, always have. I have close American relatives living in The States. My father fought alongside the 'Yanks" in WW2 (apologies to all Southerners, we "Aussies" see the title "Yanks" as applying to the whole nation..affectionately).
I was brought up to respect America because they were the ONLY nation willing to help save Australia's arse from the Japs!
And there is sooo much of their culture that I have loved and admired, right from age 9 when dad brought back from New York a red satin baseball jacket with the major teams' logos on it, and I still have it, as I do my cowboy boots!
So what I hear you say!
Well, it is all that is great and good in America that is being threatened, distorted and led astray today. And not for any 'good purpose', meaning for the welfare of the world and American people per se. But for the economic good, and power, of the very top economic elite.
I do not know how much "Dubbya" knows, but I suspect his dad and his cronies do...enter Rumsfeld, Cheney etc.
The official facts, as stated by both our governments, about the events on 911...DO NOT ADD UP when you see the actual physical evidence.
So do yourself a favour.
If you love democracy...
if you truly love America...
or just love the ideal of truth and freedom...
watch this DVD..please.
fog
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
Thanks, guys.
Raven, I've never been famous for subtlety, hahaha!